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	<title>Comments on: NuVinci Harmony automatic shifting for e-bikes</title>
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	<link>http://bicycledesign.net/2011/08/nuvinci-harmony-automatic-shifting-for-e-bikes/?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=nuvinci-harmony-automatic-shifting-for-e-bikes</link>
	<description>The blog about industrial design in the bike industry</description>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://bicycledesign.net/2011/08/nuvinci-harmony-automatic-shifting-for-e-bikes/comment-page-1/#comment-25477</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2012 19:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bicycledesign.net/?p=2452#comment-25477</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My friends and I are currently designing a non-electric automatic shifting bicycle that uses the Nuvinci N360 rear hub.  We&#039;d love to have any interested parties take the bike for a spin and give us your honest feedback so we can try and improve the product.  We are located in Michigan.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My friends and I are currently designing a non-electric automatic shifting bicycle that uses the Nuvinci N360 rear hub.  We&#8217;d love to have any interested parties take the bike for a spin and give us your honest feedback so we can try and improve the product.  We are located in Michigan.</p>
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		<title>By: dave</title>
		<link>http://bicycledesign.net/2011/08/nuvinci-harmony-automatic-shifting-for-e-bikes/comment-page-1/#comment-25390</link>
		<dc:creator>dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jan 2012 04:03:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bicycledesign.net/?p=2452#comment-25390</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[On this youtube video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n7lKx0d_FQ

The owner of an ebike fitted with I assume the first iteration of the nuvinci hub, 

commented that he gets &quot;about 47km/h on flat ground with the NuVinci wheel and 51km/h with a normal wheel. The transmission steals quite a bit of power from the motor.&quot;

That appears to be roughly 92% Efficiency in this particular usage case, although I presume it must be worse at lower speeds.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On this youtube video, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n7lKx0d_FQ" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n7lKx0d_FQ</a></p>
<p>The owner of an ebike fitted with I assume the first iteration of the nuvinci hub, </p>
<p>commented that he gets &#8220;about 47km/h on flat ground with the NuVinci wheel and 51km/h with a normal wheel. The transmission steals quite a bit of power from the motor.&#8221;</p>
<p>That appears to be roughly 92% Efficiency in this particular usage case, although I presume it must be worse at lower speeds.</p>
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		<title>By: Impossibly Stupid</title>
		<link>http://bicycledesign.net/2011/08/nuvinci-harmony-automatic-shifting-for-e-bikes/comment-page-1/#comment-24576</link>
		<dc:creator>Impossibly Stupid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2011 21:52:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bicycledesign.net/?p=2452#comment-24576</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the main focal point for most consumers is &quot;Will this help me sit on a couch and eat while watching TV.&quot;  Which is to say, I&#039;ve seen no indication that e-bikes are getting people to ride who wouldn&#039;t otherwise ride.  Regular bikes are pretty damn cheap and efficient for anyone who is willing to go riding in the first place, so the niche that e-bikes really have to hit does not seem like the one they are marketing towards.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the main focal point for most consumers is &#8220;Will this help me sit on a couch and eat while watching TV.&#8221;  Which is to say, I&#8217;ve seen no indication that e-bikes are getting people to ride who wouldn&#8217;t otherwise ride.  Regular bikes are pretty damn cheap and efficient for anyone who is willing to go riding in the first place, so the niche that e-bikes really have to hit does not seem like the one they are marketing towards.</p>
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		<title>By: Impossibly Stupid</title>
		<link>http://bicycledesign.net/2011/08/nuvinci-harmony-automatic-shifting-for-e-bikes/comment-page-1/#comment-24575</link>
		<dc:creator>Impossibly Stupid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2011 21:45:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bicycledesign.net/?p=2452#comment-24575</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s not &lt;i&gt;so&lt;/i&gt; horrible, all things considered.  Still, though, I&#039;d have to compare the e-bike to the lighter regular bike you can get at 1/3 the cost (and without all the extra electric parts to maintain).  I really don&#039;t think it&#039;s asking too much to get solid numbers that compare input RPM to output speed (and corresponding distance on one charge).  Maybe the Harmony systems will make it easier to market e-bikes that way.

I just want to be able to say, before I plunk down $3k, &quot;Alright, the effort that would normally having me going 10mph will now have me going 20mph and the charge would still last 50 miles, which is more than enough to get me back and forth to work without being all sweaty.  Sold!&quot;  Right now it&#039;s mostly, &quot;Meh, I&#039;ll just split the difference and go 15mph on my lighter current setup.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s not <i>so</i> horrible, all things considered.  Still, though, I&#8217;d have to compare the e-bike to the lighter regular bike you can get at 1/3 the cost (and without all the extra electric parts to maintain).  I really don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s asking too much to get solid numbers that compare input RPM to output speed (and corresponding distance on one charge).  Maybe the Harmony systems will make it easier to market e-bikes that way.</p>
<p>I just want to be able to say, before I plunk down $3k, &#8220;Alright, the effort that would normally having me going 10mph will now have me going 20mph and the charge would still last 50 miles, which is more than enough to get me back and forth to work without being all sweaty.  Sold!&#8221;  Right now it&#8217;s mostly, &#8220;Meh, I&#8217;ll just split the difference and go 15mph on my lighter current setup.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Nobility</title>
		<link>http://bicycledesign.net/2011/08/nuvinci-harmony-automatic-shifting-for-e-bikes/comment-page-1/#comment-24573</link>
		<dc:creator>Nobility</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2011 13:57:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bicycledesign.net/?p=2452#comment-24573</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[On the contrary: It will greatly benefit efficiency on ebikes since high torque is reduced because of this system. And high motor torque is exactly what eats up battery life. So as a result the range of the bike increases wich is the main focal point for most consumers]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the contrary: It will greatly benefit efficiency on ebikes since high torque is reduced because of this system. And high motor torque is exactly what eats up battery life. So as a result the range of the bike increases wich is the main focal point for most consumers</p>
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		<title>By: James Thomas</title>
		<link>http://bicycledesign.net/2011/08/nuvinci-harmony-automatic-shifting-for-e-bikes/comment-page-1/#comment-24572</link>
		<dc:creator>James Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2011 13:30:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bicycledesign.net/?p=2452#comment-24572</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I haven&#039;t seen a firm price, but &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.gizmag.com/nuvinci-harmony-cvp-ebike-transmission/19473/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Gizmag reports&lt;/a&gt; that it &lt;em&gt;&quot;should start appearing on e-bikes in the EUR 2,000 (US$2,864) and up price range, starting early next year.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t seen a firm price, but <a href="http://www.gizmag.com/nuvinci-harmony-cvp-ebike-transmission/19473/" rel="nofollow">Gizmag reports</a> that it <em>&#8220;should start appearing on e-bikes in the EUR 2,000 (US$2,864) and up price range, starting early next year.&#8221;</em></p>
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		<title>By: Bintz</title>
		<link>http://bicycledesign.net/2011/08/nuvinci-harmony-automatic-shifting-for-e-bikes/comment-page-1/#comment-24571</link>
		<dc:creator>Bintz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2011 13:00:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bicycledesign.net/?p=2452#comment-24571</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[NuVinci is a CVT that is expected to minimize energy loss on changing gear-ratios and the gear-shift is smooth, as &#039;nicolas&#039; pointed above.

On the other hand, NuVinci is a sort of Traction Drive. Traction drive is usually unfamiliar even to mechanical engineers and mostly regarded as a magic to not-engineers. In a traction drive, flat-surfaced rollers contact with other flat-surfaced rollers without teeth. And amazingly the rollers transfer power without slippage.

The secret of this magic is from the lubricant called &#039;traction oil&#039;. Traction oil dramatically increases friction at contact-surfaces of rollers : Imagine a bicycle having two steel wheels but no rubber tires on them. The bicycle is running on a large steel plate. Yes, there will be slippages whenever high pedaling torque is given. But if traction oil is covered on the steel plate then No Slip.

What I hope to note is &#039;operating conditions&#039; of the drive. Transferring high torque without slippage needs high friction and it&#039;s possible by increasing contact pressure between rollers. High friction causes high energy loss. So a traction drive is known to be suitable for relatively low torque &amp; high speed conditions. ※ All experimental studies on traction drives what I saw described their input speed is over 1000rpm(mostly around 1500rpm).

The NuVinci maker will not reveal the efficiency. ※ I guess the minimum efficiency could be under 85%. Most people can&#039;t feel such amount of energy loss on rides because the rolling resistances of tires are bigger.

Anyway it doesn&#039;t mean NuVinci is useless. NuVinci is a surely good invention providing differentiated characteristics. I think the drive is effective but (just) not efficient.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NuVinci is a CVT that is expected to minimize energy loss on changing gear-ratios and the gear-shift is smooth, as &#8216;nicolas&#8217; pointed above.</p>
<p>On the other hand, NuVinci is a sort of Traction Drive. Traction drive is usually unfamiliar even to mechanical engineers and mostly regarded as a magic to not-engineers. In a traction drive, flat-surfaced rollers contact with other flat-surfaced rollers without teeth. And amazingly the rollers transfer power without slippage.</p>
<p>The secret of this magic is from the lubricant called &#8216;traction oil&#8217;. Traction oil dramatically increases friction at contact-surfaces of rollers : Imagine a bicycle having two steel wheels but no rubber tires on them. The bicycle is running on a large steel plate. Yes, there will be slippages whenever high pedaling torque is given. But if traction oil is covered on the steel plate then No Slip.</p>
<p>What I hope to note is &#8216;operating conditions&#8217; of the drive. Transferring high torque without slippage needs high friction and it&#8217;s possible by increasing contact pressure between rollers. High friction causes high energy loss. So a traction drive is known to be suitable for relatively low torque &amp; high speed conditions. ※ All experimental studies on traction drives what I saw described their input speed is over 1000rpm(mostly around 1500rpm).</p>
<p>The NuVinci maker will not reveal the efficiency. ※ I guess the minimum efficiency could be under 85%. Most people can&#8217;t feel such amount of energy loss on rides because the rolling resistances of tires are bigger.</p>
<p>Anyway it doesn&#8217;t mean NuVinci is useless. NuVinci is a surely good invention providing differentiated characteristics. I think the drive is effective but (just) not efficient.</p>
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		<title>By: nicolas</title>
		<link>http://bicycledesign.net/2011/08/nuvinci-harmony-automatic-shifting-for-e-bikes/comment-page-1/#comment-24566</link>
		<dc:creator>nicolas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2011 08:27:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bicycledesign.net/?p=2452#comment-24566</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I only took one test ride on an autoshift bike and didn&#039;t much care for it. The problem was hills (not even steep ones): in order to get the transmission to understand it should downshift, you gotta ease up on the pedaling... but that&#039;s something you&#039;re loath to do when going uphill because you&#039;ll lose momentum. I felt that autoshift was counterintuitive and inefficient, a self-defeating proposition. Of course, pedelec makes this a much smaller problem than it is on a regular bike.

That makes me all the more curious about the NuVici Harmony though, as I imagine that this problem disappears with CVT. I can see the appeal of e-bikes for some... if you look at the number of old Dutch couples taking tours on the countryside riding e-bikes, you can imagine that there&#039;s a market for CVT-autoshift-pedelec machines. I could probably sell my fairly sedentary parents on those, too.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I only took one test ride on an autoshift bike and didn&#8217;t much care for it. The problem was hills (not even steep ones): in order to get the transmission to understand it should downshift, you gotta ease up on the pedaling&#8230; but that&#8217;s something you&#8217;re loath to do when going uphill because you&#8217;ll lose momentum. I felt that autoshift was counterintuitive and inefficient, a self-defeating proposition. Of course, pedelec makes this a much smaller problem than it is on a regular bike.</p>
<p>That makes me all the more curious about the NuVici Harmony though, as I imagine that this problem disappears with CVT. I can see the appeal of e-bikes for some&#8230; if you look at the number of old Dutch couples taking tours on the countryside riding e-bikes, you can imagine that there&#8217;s a market for CVT-autoshift-pedelec machines. I could probably sell my fairly sedentary parents on those, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Impossibly Stupid</title>
		<link>http://bicycledesign.net/2011/08/nuvinci-harmony-automatic-shifting-for-e-bikes/comment-page-1/#comment-24561</link>
		<dc:creator>Impossibly Stupid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2011 01:02:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bicycledesign.net/?p=2452#comment-24561</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Without mention of an e-bike price equipped with this, I&#039;m going to go ahead and assume it will cost more than a scooter (and possibly even more than a solid motorcycle), and thus quickly fail to find a market.  It is a nifty enough idea, because I cycle enough to know I &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; have a preferred RPM for long rides that it would be sweet to just dial in and go, but all the overhead involved is going to kill the efficiency of the bike more than the fuss of manual shifting costs.

I will look more seriously at these things when some company steps away from the marketing and crunches the numbers to show a real benefit.  I&#039;m not going to double the weight of my bike and quintuple the price just to get a small electric boost without having to shift gears.  I&#039;d rather drop that money on something I didn&#039;t have to pedal at all, which is already what most people do.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Without mention of an e-bike price equipped with this, I&#8217;m going to go ahead and assume it will cost more than a scooter (and possibly even more than a solid motorcycle), and thus quickly fail to find a market.  It is a nifty enough idea, because I cycle enough to know I <i>do</i> have a preferred RPM for long rides that it would be sweet to just dial in and go, but all the overhead involved is going to kill the efficiency of the bike more than the fuss of manual shifting costs.</p>
<p>I will look more seriously at these things when some company steps away from the marketing and crunches the numbers to show a real benefit.  I&#8217;m not going to double the weight of my bike and quintuple the price just to get a small electric boost without having to shift gears.  I&#8217;d rather drop that money on something I didn&#8217;t have to pedal at all, which is already what most people do.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve A</title>
		<link>http://bicycledesign.net/2011/08/nuvinci-harmony-automatic-shifting-for-e-bikes/comment-page-1/#comment-24560</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Aug 2011 22:56:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bicycledesign.net/?p=2452#comment-24560</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hmm, as you said, I&#039;m not their target market. I also have a 1967 Jaguar E type with a four speed manual transmission. Your assessment may well prove accurate, particularly if cost premiums can be kept reasonable.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, as you said, I&#8217;m not their target market. I also have a 1967 Jaguar E type with a four speed manual transmission. Your assessment may well prove accurate, particularly if cost premiums can be kept reasonable.</p>
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