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	<title>Comments on: The Copenhagen Wheel</title>
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	<link>http://bicycledesign.net/2009/12/the-copenhagen-wheel/?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=the-copenhagen-wheel</link>
	<description>The blog about industrial design in the bike industry</description>
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		<title>By: Erik Orgell</title>
		<link>http://bicycledesign.net/2009/12/the-copenhagen-wheel/comment-page-1/#comment-3560</link>
		<dc:creator>Erik Orgell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:39:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bicycledesign.net/2009/12/the-copenhagen-wheel/#comment-3560</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Unless it can be plugged in and used as a pre-charged power source I am not seeing much utility in adding so much weight, expense and complexity to a bike to sole recapture a fraction of energy lost in braking. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I am all for innovation and new ideas but I&#039;m not really seeing this as being a great solution. It might be usable and a step in the right direction but it isn&#039;t there yet.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unless it can be plugged in and used as a pre-charged power source I am not seeing much utility in adding so much weight, expense and complexity to a bike to sole recapture a fraction of energy lost in braking. </p>
<p>I am all for innovation and new ideas but I&#39;m not really seeing this as being a great solution. It might be usable and a step in the right direction but it isn&#39;t there yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin</title>
		<link>http://bicycledesign.net/2009/12/the-copenhagen-wheel/comment-page-1/#comment-3559</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 15:20:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bicycledesign.net/2009/12/the-copenhagen-wheel/#comment-3559</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the interest and recent hype about this concept is certainly constructive on many levels...The negatives about whether it can really work or not, and how much energy is needed for the concept to be a reality is valid...However, I would certainly rather to focus more myself on the value behind the concept and how it becomes a response to the need for ideas revolving around sustainable transport. That it in itself is more important than whether it can work or not. I think this concept has gained intrigue because it&#039;s really aiming to solve something..It may not be the first and it won&#039;t certainly be the last but this is a good start. Not to mention, if MIT is involved, something good should happen.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the interest and recent hype about this concept is certainly constructive on many levels&#8230;The negatives about whether it can really work or not, and how much energy is needed for the concept to be a reality is valid&#8230;However, I would certainly rather to focus more myself on the value behind the concept and how it becomes a response to the need for ideas revolving around sustainable transport. That it in itself is more important than whether it can work or not. I think this concept has gained intrigue because it&#39;s really aiming to solve something..It may not be the first and it won&#39;t certainly be the last but this is a good start. Not to mention, if MIT is involved, something good should happen.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://bicycledesign.net/2009/12/the-copenhagen-wheel/comment-page-1/#comment-3554</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 11:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bicycledesign.net/2009/12/the-copenhagen-wheel/#comment-3554</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Forget Copenhagen. You should visit Amsterdam to see a city of bikes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Forget Copenhagen. You should visit Amsterdam to see a city of bikes.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://bicycledesign.net/2009/12/the-copenhagen-wheel/comment-page-1/#comment-3553</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:59:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bicycledesign.net/2009/12/the-copenhagen-wheel/#comment-3553</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Neat wheel (though it should go on the front which actually does most of the braking), but why the hell does it have to be a fscking iPhone?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neat wheel (though it should go on the front which actually does most of the braking), but why the hell does it have to be a fscking iPhone?</p>
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		<title>By: B. Nicholson</title>
		<link>http://bicycledesign.net/2009/12/the-copenhagen-wheel/comment-page-1/#comment-3552</link>
		<dc:creator>B. Nicholson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 08:42:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bicycledesign.net/2009/12/the-copenhagen-wheel/#comment-3552</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wireless is nice and solves a lot of terrible problems, mainly with reliability.  The geared up inside, also wireless, is a step up in reliability and utility, making the Copenhagen Wheel the best hub motor I&#039;ve ever seen.  The efficiency gained with the gearing, though is lost with the battery in the wheel.  The battery can be wired through the hub into fenders or &#039;hub caps&#039; anywhere so they won&#039;t have to be dragged around the hub and you have a much more efficient, much more reliable, much lighter set up than anything on the market now.  Yeah, dump the regen, unless you yodel.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wireless is nice and solves a lot of terrible problems, mainly with reliability.  The geared up inside, also wireless, is a step up in reliability and utility, making the Copenhagen Wheel the best hub motor I&#39;ve ever seen.  The efficiency gained with the gearing, though is lost with the battery in the wheel.  The battery can be wired through the hub into fenders or &#39;hub caps&#39; anywhere so they won&#39;t have to be dragged around the hub and you have a much more efficient, much more reliable, much lighter set up than anything on the market now.  Yeah, dump the regen, unless you yodel.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://bicycledesign.net/2009/12/the-copenhagen-wheel/comment-page-1/#comment-3551</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 01:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bicycledesign.net/2009/12/the-copenhagen-wheel/#comment-3551</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great comments so far! This is just the type of discussion I was hoping this post would generate.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ron and Anon 4:27 make a great point about the practicality of regenerative braking for a car vs. a bike. What may make sense for a car, especially an F1 car stopping rapidly from 200mph, does not necessarily apply to a slow moving vehicle with a total weight around 200 lbs.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The weight distribution point made by Daner and others is a very good one too.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Still, I am glad to see more engineering resources these days going toward all types of e-bike development. Time will tell if this develops into anything, but for now it is a great catalyst for more discussion. Keep the comments coming!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great comments so far! This is just the type of discussion I was hoping this post would generate.</p>
<p>Ron and Anon 4:27 make a great point about the practicality of regenerative braking for a car vs. a bike. What may make sense for a car, especially an F1 car stopping rapidly from 200mph, does not necessarily apply to a slow moving vehicle with a total weight around 200 lbs.</p>
<p>The weight distribution point made by Daner and others is a very good one too.</p>
<p>Still, I am glad to see more engineering resources these days going toward all types of e-bike development. Time will tell if this develops into anything, but for now it is a great catalyst for more discussion. Keep the comments coming!</p>
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		<title>By: Pete Hindle</title>
		<link>http://bicycledesign.net/2009/12/the-copenhagen-wheel/comment-page-1/#comment-3550</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete Hindle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:31:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bicycledesign.net/2009/12/the-copenhagen-wheel/#comment-3550</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Andrew - I&#039;m really enjoying this thread, and Ron&#039;s breakdown of the physics was very interesting. I realise I came off like a hair-shirt vegan in the first comment... my bad!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Andrew &#8211; I&#39;m really enjoying this thread, and Ron&#39;s breakdown of the physics was very interesting. I realise I came off like a hair-shirt vegan in the first comment&#8230; my bad!</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://bicycledesign.net/2009/12/the-copenhagen-wheel/comment-page-1/#comment-3549</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:27:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bicycledesign.net/2009/12/the-copenhagen-wheel/#comment-3549</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For a 1500 kg car moving at high speed, regenerative braking makes sense. I don&#039;t see it being practical in a mode of transport as light as the bicycle. Or perhaps it will be, as Ron said, with a lot of stops on the commute. So if you&#039;re not stopping as much, you&#039;re not going to take advantage of regenerative braking so its conserving energy only at certain times. Going with an e-bike also takes care of the apparent compatibility problems you&#039;ll have putting a wheel with a hub on separate bikes and separate designs. Thats my take...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For a 1500 kg car moving at high speed, regenerative braking makes sense. I don&#39;t see it being practical in a mode of transport as light as the bicycle. Or perhaps it will be, as Ron said, with a lot of stops on the commute. So if you&#39;re not stopping as much, you&#39;re not going to take advantage of regenerative braking so its conserving energy only at certain times. Going with an e-bike also takes care of the apparent compatibility problems you&#39;ll have putting a wheel with a hub on separate bikes and separate designs. Thats my take&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://bicycledesign.net/2009/12/the-copenhagen-wheel/comment-page-1/#comment-3548</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:57:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bicycledesign.net/2009/12/the-copenhagen-wheel/#comment-3548</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Realistically, there are plenty of &quot;eBike in a Box&quot; kits out there comprising a battery pack and a rear motor-hub laced to a wheel. Many of them are made in China, and undoubtedly dramatically cheaper than this one.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Regenerative braking is probably not a practical solution on vehicles as light and efficient as a bicycle, especially in the rear-hub, since only a small proportion of braking pressure is exerted on the rear of a bike.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ebikes make sense for a lot of people who just want to get where they need to go with a minimum of fuss, so I have no problem with the concept, just the execution (Daner does a good job of outlining the problems with this one).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As far as Pete&#039;s comment, your argument really goes beyond the scope of this blog, or of bicycling, period. The fact of the matter is, the amount of influence that an individual person has on the global issue of climate change is pretty trivial. Obviously, the solutions need to be macro-industrial, political, and social ones. Personal &#039;greening&#039; is pretty much just to satisfy our own egos and make us feel like we are actually significant in some way (and I say this as a car-less vegetarian for sustainability reasons, so I&#039;m being a bit cynical beyond my hypocrisy).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Realistically, there are plenty of &quot;eBike in a Box&quot; kits out there comprising a battery pack and a rear motor-hub laced to a wheel. Many of them are made in China, and undoubtedly dramatically cheaper than this one.</p>
<p>Regenerative braking is probably not a practical solution on vehicles as light and efficient as a bicycle, especially in the rear-hub, since only a small proportion of braking pressure is exerted on the rear of a bike.</p>
<p>Ebikes make sense for a lot of people who just want to get where they need to go with a minimum of fuss, so I have no problem with the concept, just the execution (Daner does a good job of outlining the problems with this one).</p>
<p>As far as Pete&#39;s comment, your argument really goes beyond the scope of this blog, or of bicycling, period. The fact of the matter is, the amount of influence that an individual person has on the global issue of climate change is pretty trivial. Obviously, the solutions need to be macro-industrial, political, and social ones. Personal &#39;greening&#39; is pretty much just to satisfy our own egos and make us feel like we are actually significant in some way (and I say this as a car-less vegetarian for sustainability reasons, so I&#39;m being a bit cynical beyond my hypocrisy).</p>
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		<title>By: Ron</title>
		<link>http://bicycledesign.net/2009/12/the-copenhagen-wheel/comment-page-1/#comment-3547</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:36:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bicycledesign.net/2009/12/the-copenhagen-wheel/#comment-3547</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The pertinent questions I ask would MIT is the energy content of battery (Wh/kg) and energy use per distance (Wh/km). Multiplying both will give us an estimate of distance/kg of battery weight and total energy capacity per charge. Knowing cost of electricity, someone can easily calculate the the true cost of riding the bike or a bike equipped with the wheel.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Then comes the question of braking energy recovery. How many stops would one have to make to recover atleast 10% of the total battery capacity back and how much will a cyclist&#039;s range be extended?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&#039;ll give a perspective. A 180 lb man with a 20 lb bike traveling at 15 mph needs 2026 joules or 0.56 Wh of K.E to come to a stop. With what efficiency will the recovery system be able to capture some of that? 70%? 80%? Let&#039;s assume 75%. I can get back 0.42 Wh or 1516 joules back, but I can only put this energy back into the battery at a certain charge rate which really depends on the battery&#039;s specs.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For illustration, if battery&#039;s max charge rate is 100 joules/sec, 1516 joules takes 15 seconds or more to put back in.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now realistically, no one takes that long to stop, even though the CPSC recommends that brakes should stop a cyclist in 15 seconds from 15 mph to 0mph.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So realistically, people take about 3-4 seconds every time to stop. Using the 100 J/s charge rate, cyclist can only put in 400 Joules or 0.11 Wh back every stop. So the question again becomes, how many times does a cyclist have to stop to put back 10% of kinetic energy of braking, at 75% efficiency to get the extra amount of miles, given the limitations of the battery?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If its a large amount, it may make sense of a crowded urban area, otherwise not really considering buying costs and lifecycle costs. Also considering Copenhagen is on the route to &quot;biking highways&quot; in future (2012+), I expect some of the stopping needed to go away so then the question is, will a technology like this even be necessary then? Perhaps NYC can really make use of this. You can provide such a technology to those poor pedal cabbies and save some of their energy. I see a lot of practicality in something like that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The pertinent questions I ask would MIT is the energy content of battery (Wh/kg) and energy use per distance (Wh/km). Multiplying both will give us an estimate of distance/kg of battery weight and total energy capacity per charge. Knowing cost of electricity, someone can easily calculate the the true cost of riding the bike or a bike equipped with the wheel.</p>
<p>Then comes the question of braking energy recovery. How many stops would one have to make to recover atleast 10% of the total battery capacity back and how much will a cyclist&#39;s range be extended?</p>
<p>I&#39;ll give a perspective. A 180 lb man with a 20 lb bike traveling at 15 mph needs 2026 joules or 0.56 Wh of K.E to come to a stop. With what efficiency will the recovery system be able to capture some of that? 70%? 80%? Let&#39;s assume 75%. I can get back 0.42 Wh or 1516 joules back, but I can only put this energy back into the battery at a certain charge rate which really depends on the battery&#39;s specs.</p>
<p>For illustration, if battery&#39;s max charge rate is 100 joules/sec, 1516 joules takes 15 seconds or more to put back in.</p>
<p>Now realistically, no one takes that long to stop, even though the CPSC recommends that brakes should stop a cyclist in 15 seconds from 15 mph to 0mph.</p>
<p>So realistically, people take about 3-4 seconds every time to stop. Using the 100 J/s charge rate, cyclist can only put in 400 Joules or 0.11 Wh back every stop. So the question again becomes, how many times does a cyclist have to stop to put back 10% of kinetic energy of braking, at 75% efficiency to get the extra amount of miles, given the limitations of the battery?</p>
<p>If its a large amount, it may make sense of a crowded urban area, otherwise not really considering buying costs and lifecycle costs. Also considering Copenhagen is on the route to &quot;biking highways&quot; in future (2012+), I expect some of the stopping needed to go away so then the question is, will a technology like this even be necessary then? Perhaps NYC can really make use of this. You can provide such a technology to those poor pedal cabbies and save some of their energy. I see a lot of practicality in something like that.</p>
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